Interview with Eric Heinz
Photos courtesy of Eric Heinz
Interview by Nathan Harrison-Bokor
The seasoned muralist tells us the key to hand painting 20 foot advertisements in the pouring rain.
Nate
How did you get into becoming a muralist?
Eric
So I went to Pratt Institute, starting out. I went to school for Communications Design. So, illustration, graphic design—I always loved painting murals, though. I always liked doing large-scale things that had more impact and I saw an Indeed post for this mural company that was looking for some painters. I reached out and—I happened to have a broken arm at the time—worked one job with them and then didn't work with them for the next three years until they reached back out to me again. I've kind of just been there for, like, six years now, painting murals.
Nate
What made them reach out to you so many years later?
Eric
I think that they were just a smaller company at the time and they were looking to build out their infrastructure a little bit more, so they went with somebody that had a bit more of a construction, carpentry background—people that could kind of build the shop out. Because they had a history with me and knew I was really excited to do the work, I think that they knew that if they reached out, they could get me.
Nate
And, just to clarify, you work at Overall Murals, correct?
Eric
Correct, yeah. I'm a painter for them.
Nate
When did Overall start?
Eric
Overall started in 2010, so they're only fourteen years in.
Nate
So you've been there for a half of its life?
Eric
Yeah, something like that. Pretty wild. I've seen a lot of change, and they actually just bought a whole new warehouse in Williamsburg. They're really excited to move into it and expand.
Nate
Oh, that's awesome. Did you have experience painting at the scale that you do now before that first job when you had that broken arm?
Eric
I was kind of useless. You got to, like, set up scaffolding and stuff, so I was kind of just the guy hanging around watching them set up everything and I think that kind of had a factor on why I didn't get the callback right away. I did some small scale stuff for myself, like painting an electrical box in Jersey City, but nothing on the scale of what we do at Overall. We paint some massive walls and we're expected to get them done within a week. You're essentially painting a 20 foot face and you gotta get it done in, like, a day and a half.
Nate
How many people does it take to paint a mural if you're working within a week timeframe?
Eric
They'll try to place enough personnel on a site to make it happen. It kind of is based on how much space you have. If we're on like a suspended scaffold on the side of a building, you can only have two painters on it: one per motor. But if it's a ground level wall and they have a bunch of scissor lifts going—I've been on a wall where I've been leading as many as 15 people at a time. There, I'm directing people, making sure that they know what they're doing, and making sure that everybody's on the same page. There's a lot of coordination that has to happen when you start scaling it up and start bringing more people into the mix.
Nate
So, since you've been there for six years, you kind of have more of a managerial role where you're kind of training people?
Eric
Yeah. We kind of rely on full timers to be the leads on the wall—which is kind of the manager on site—just to make sure that quality control is there. They tend to go for somebody who has more experience—like, I've seen every aspect of the job. On top of that, I'm the guy who's also painting the faces.
Nate
It must be nice now that it seems like you've really earned your chops to where you can direct a little bit.
Eric
Actually, you'd think that, but I'm still expected to be the lead and then also paint some of the heavier stuff like the focal points. But, it also depends, because if you have a big enough team, you can delegate things to people, but, sometimes, when there's, say, fifteen walls happening at a given time, everyone's spread pretty thin, so you're kind of expected to pick up a little bit more of the slack.
Nate
So you guys kind of prioritize—based on skill—areas of the mural where the eye is going to travel to more (the focal points) and then you have people with less experience working on the background or areas that are not looked at so heavily.
Eric
Correct. And, I mean, we'll still look at the background, but the spectacle of it is that it's just a painting, because once we leave, people will just assume that it's a vinyl. So maybe it's better to have somebody who shows a couple more paint strokes, you know? That way, once you leave, everyone's like, "Oh, you know what? They hand painted that!" But sometimes the background can be more difficult than the foreground. Generally, there's a lot of depth of field, so things are more blurred out and just because something's blurred out doesn't necessarily mean that it's easier to paint. I find that painting something sharp in the foreground is a lot easier because it's more tangible.
Nate
Why are they hand painted? Why aren't they just vinyl or a billboard?
Eric
That's a great question. I mean, there's a lot of history in hand painted billboards. It goes way back. There's some really cool ads that have gone up across New York City and across the country. I'm not sure. I think it's more of the fact that people see us doing it and it creates a buzz, right?
Nate
And there is a special quality to it. Like, there's a special craft and quality to something that's hand painted versus printed.
Eric
Exactly. And especially now, as we get into AI generated stuff, I think that the demand for something that's hand done is going to go up.
Nate
Do you guys specialize in a specific type of mural or ad?
Eric
There's advertisers that come to us more than others. It's not an inexpensive thing to do, so you definitely get bigger brands. Liquor companies love to sponsor and pay for walls. We do a lot of phone companies, like Apple, Samsung, Verizon, things like that. I'm painting a Nike ad, currently. So, yeah, big corporations, generally.
Nate
I heard that an aspect of it was that, in New York City, you can't put a billboard on certain buildings but you can paint the side of the same building. Is that also a factor?
Eric
There's rules on what you can get away with, where you can't necessarily put a new ad somewhere if there hasn't been an ad there previously.
Nate
But you could paint the side of the building, no problem.
Eric
I believe so. I think that there's still some, like, legality behind what you can do in certain neighborhoods and everything. But I don't really deal with that aspect of the job. They just point to a wall and say "Go paint it."
Nate
What are the techniques that you've implemented to be able to paint so realistically? Like, mixing colors, grid systems— what kind of prep are you doing before starting the wall? Can you speak about that?
Eric
Yeah. I can't give away too much because there's some trade secrets. You gotta leave some secret sauce behind. We do a pretty old technique of making patterns with a pounce machine. We are perforating butcher paper, essentially, with an electric current, where anywhere pen tip goes is going to create a hole, so you can draw across a big piece of butcher paper, and then, if you take a charcoal bag and hit it, all the holes are going to leave the image behind. We'll go through a process where we get given an image and then we translate that into a big map and we'll project it in the shop and then make the patterns to go out to the wall. Everything is scaled perfectly to the wall. Somebody has already pre-mixed colors—whether it's me or somebody else—and we're given a swatch and have to interpret the colors on the swatch for the art given and the lines on the wall. It takes a certain type of person to be able to do that all perfectly. Sometimes somebody's not as experienced with mixing and you don't get the brightest chroma of colors, so you need to then take pure colors that we generally send out to every job site, and you'll need to bump things up and make sure that things, chromatically, are bright enough because the further the read is, the less bright things will get. If you paint something that's really dark, when you end up viewing it 150 feet away, it's going to look even darker. It's a pretty big process. There's a lot of parts and, if everything's not perfect, the products might suffer.
Nate
Those pounce patterns must get pretty damn big. I guess you guys put it into sections or something, huh?
Eric
We'll do it in, like, four foot tall sections, and then, however wide the wall is, we'll just keep on stretching the pattern paper. If it gets too big, we can always split it into sections as well. Sometimes you end up having, like, 18 rolls of paper because the wall is, you know, 100 feet long or something.
Nate
That's a lot.
Eric
Yeah. It could be a full day. You put all that up and now you just have charcoal on the wall.
Nate
What happens if it rains and the charcoal gets washed off?
Eric
Then you have to redraw everything onto the wall. Sharpie markers and pencils are kind of, like, your go-to. Sharpie will bleed through your paint, so that way you can spot colors over the line and then you'll cut colors back if you want things to bleed if there's logos that you want to come through…
Nate
How do you work around the weather? What type of weather are you working in? Are you working in the snow? Are you working when it rains?
Eric
Yeah, we were in some snow storms this past winter. We will work in the rain—we work with oil enamels, so water and oil don't mix, right? So you really don't want water to get into your paint, you don't want water to get on your brushes. It's going to mess them up, it's going to mess up your paint, the paint will run off the wall... everything. So, if we're able to—it's not every wall—but we will sometimes tarp things, where we make a whole tent structure that comes from the top of the building over us. But that's not ideal because there's a lot of fumes that come off of the paint and then you're kind of trapped in a greenhouse. It's not the best, but, unfortunately, there's still a deadline for all of these, so we have to get them done and, you know, meet client expectations
Nate
So, since these oil enamels are very vibrant and have a much better coverage, I'm assuming you guys kind of get things done in one pass if it's a solid block of color since it's oil enamel?
Eric
Right. We generally try to paint to finish, so we're not working up layers like you do in studio painting. Once you leave the mark on the wall, hopefully that's the only thing you have to do. And that's it, you're done. But, yeah, we use the oil enamels because they are pretty much weatherproofed. It's going to hold up to rain, it seals itself, and it has a great sheen to it—it's nice and glossy.
Nate
Do you have a favorite oil enamel that you guys use?
Eric
Not necessarily, no. We use a brand called Ronin. It's a little bit more affordable than something like OneShot. If you're painting, like, windows or you're doing something like a production job, maybe you'll switch to OneShot just because it's a slightly better quality. But, for what we do, Ronin is perfect.
Nate
So those guys over at Ronin must love you, then. You guys probably buy all their paint.
Eric
Yeah, but they kind of have a previous relationship with a different company where they print that company's logo on their cans and everybody else in the industry doesn't necessarily love that. We tried using a different brand, but ultimately we like the colors and the quality that Ronin provides. Our boss is actually trying to synthesize his own colors and paints, but that's still a long way out.
Nate
Is there any competition between companies based on what industry you guys have clients with? Or is there more of a fellowship? What's the community like?
Eric
I think that there used to be some beef back in the day. Things have definitely mellowed out; everyone's a lot friendlier these days. I can definitely go to other companies and say hi to everybody and there's no issues or anything. We're currently the largest independent hand-painted company, so we're not necessarily competing with the larger company, Colossal, which is in the city. I'm not sure what their whole gig is or anything. I've never had beef with anybody in the field. I feel like everybody is ground level. So if there's beef between higher-ups, that's on them. Everyone's really chill and that's kind of what keeps me in the industry. That said, I'm full-time. There's freelancers that will work for everybody. There's a big work-for-hire in this industry. There's a lot of people that are just looking to make some money and paint some cool murals. It's a pretty lucrative field. It's nice when you tell somebody, "Oh yeah, I work in the arts, and I work 60, 70 hours a week." They'll freak out at the numbers.
Nate
So what is that, 10-hour days?
Eric
Yeah. When I first started, we were doing 12 hour days actually, like six years ago. Yeah, we were doing seven to seven, pretty much on the regular. You'd be showing up at sun up and leaving at sundown. You kind of get a break in the wintertime because the sun sets at, like, 4:30, so you can't see the colors anymore. You got to go.
Nate
That's a lot of hours. When you're looking for people, are you looking for someone who can paint really well or someone who can work a 10, 12 hour shifts? I mean, in a way, this is very much like a trade job that's kind of construction related, no?
Eric
Yeah, no, it's art boot camp; that's the best way to put it. You learn a lot really fast and you get good at what you do really quickly. So it definitely takes a certain type of person and burnout is real. I noticed that people might only last two weeks or they're lifers and will be there for the rest of their career. My first year was really tough. I was the only apprentice that year, so there was a lot on my back. But, after that, it got really easy and every year has gotten easier and easier, even though I have more responsibility and I'm expected to provide a better product for them. Yeah, it's tough. We're looking for people who want to do the job more than anything. They might not be the best painter, but maybe they have a really great work ethic. Maybe they don't have a good work ethic, but they can paint the crap out of a face. We'll try to break them on both ends.
Nate
That's so funny. So what's your approach to training a young, up-and-coming muralist?
Eric
They kind of get stuck with not the best duties starting out. They need to learn the inside out of the shop, so they've got to do the grunt work.
Nate
And what does that look like?
Eric
They have to burn the patterns. They have to clean up. They're the production assistants of our industry, essentially. Some of them feel like they're getting punished, but if they do a good job, then we show them how to paint. We'll do workshops in the field. It's a lot of on-site training. So, making sure that they're painting correctly. You've got to kind of sway their hand and give them direction and be like, "Hey, your colors are great, but you've got to paint faster."
Nate
So you really gotta earn your stripes.
Eric
Big time. It's become a very competitive field. I think people are finding out about it. People need work, and artists want to paint and it's a job where you get to just be out in the field. My office is whatever wall I'm on for the week. So it's always a new view and it doesn't get boring.
Nate
The company's New York-based, but do you guys travel at all?
Eric
Yeah, we travel a lot. I try to travel a little bit less than other people; I don't love being on the road all the time. I have a girlfriend and an apartment. When you're potentially on the road two, three weeks out of the month, it could be a lot on you. But, we have walls across the country. The West Coast, actually, has been really active lately, so we go out to LA and SF a lot. We fly to Atlanta a whole bunch. We've got some walls in Miami. Pretty much a lot of the major metropolises have been catching on to it. Yeah, it's definitely expanding, and there's more interest in smaller parts of America, actually. You'd be surprised—small towns, all of a sudden, are talking about it.
Nate
Wow, that's cool. It's really a revival of a pre large format printing trade. It's a little renaissance.
Eric
Absolutely. Yeah, That's exactly how I described it.
Nate
What about feedback from strangers on the street? How do you deal with interactions with those people? Are they nice? Has anyone pissed you off? Or, on the flip side, have they been pissed off by what you're painting?
Eric
I mean, at the end of the day, we're painting for corporations, so people will be really excited that you as an individual has this work, but then they'll be upset at the message being posted, whether it's a liquor bottle in a residential neighborhood and they're like, "Hey, that's not really promoting the best thing in our neighborhood." But it swings both ways. People will be completely blown away and thanking you for doing it and some people will be cursing you out for doing it. It really depends on what city you're in, where you are, what you're painting. Generally it's when we work the ground level walls that they feel that they can walk up to you and give you their two cents, you know? If I'm on a suspended scaffold up in the sky, they generally leave us alone. They just kind of look out, point, and take photos. Those are generally the better walls because no one bothers you. Some of our ground level Canal Street or Venice Beach walls can get pretty hectic.
Nate
Oh, yeah, there's a lot of people coming in giving their opinions and interrupting.
Eric
Correct. A lot of tourists, too, haven't seen this before. So it can be locals, crazy people, tourists, you name it.
Nate
What's so interesting about that is that you're at the wall painting the advertisement. Versus a billboard, which gets thrown up immediately—No one's complaining about that. But, since there's someone there, there's this weird duality of the ownership of the ad and stuff.
Eric
Our walls will get tagged by graffiti. I had a guy come up to me when I was in Venice Beach—it was a Verizon ad, but there were skateboards in it, and one of the graphics was a graphic that brought up a really bad memory for the guy. He was kind of a local guy on Venice Beach and he got really upset and all of his friends kept on coming by saying, "Yo, we're going to tag up the wall as soon as you guys are done." And then he actually ended up coming by and explaining the situation on why he didn't like the graphic. He was like, "Hey, could you change it?" But, unfortunately, I can't. I am given an assignment. The better thing for him to do would be to reach out to Verizon or something. It becomes difficult because they're making it my problem, you know? We ended up leaving that one off until very last and it actually ended up not getting graffitied in any way, so we lucked out.
Nate
What kind of art do you like to make outside of painting murals?
Eric
I also love to paint and draw for myself. I'm looking to get into some more galleries and create a really awesome body of work that's going to wow people—just kind of taking everything that I've learned from this art boot camp in the past six years and directing it into something else.
Nate
You're probably one of the most regimented artists because you're really producing so much. I can't imagine how many murals you've painted and how that interacts with your own personal practice.
Eric
Unfortunately, it takes up so much of my time that it is difficult because when you're painting a face and then you have to go home and try to paint something for yourself, you're pretty much spent, right? I'll kind of beat myself up being like, Man, I haven't really done enough stuff for myself. But, at the end of the day, everything I do for my job is just pushing me forward and training me to be a better artist, you know? Like you're saying, I now have built up a great regiment of creating art for 10 hours a day.
Nate
Does every single person have their own personal practice or are some people really just in it for the commercial aspect of it?
Eric
You'd be surprised. There's fewer people who have their own personal practice, but the people that do generally do some really awesome work. There's also people that are just straight up in it for the money and the work and, at the end of the day, it's a career for them and they aren't looking to make a name for themselves; they're just looking to put food on the table and there's no shame in that either. I'm not saying that they're necessarily a worse painter than somebody who does it on their off time—somebody who's maybe more focused on the job and working in the industry is, sometimes, a better person to work with than somebody who is an amazing painter. At the end of the day, we're just painting advertisements. We can glorify it all we want, but it's not our own work.
Nate
What makes someone a superstar?
Eric
I think what makes someone a superstar is doing something differently, not following the norm, standing out from the rest, and making your own path in life. I think that people notice those people and they shine.