Superstars Only

I just want to start off with how we discovered you.

Yeah! I'm so curious.

It was my third time rewatching PEN15. It was his second time. He was just curious about who the graphic designer was for the show.

I don't really even know what graphic designer meant in the context of the show, but I just wanted to know.

It's so oddly specific. On that show, I worked just with the art department. I've worked on other stuff before where I do production graphics and post production stuff. But for PEN15, my friend Grace, who was the production designer, hit me up. The best part about that show was that every single person in the art department was age 12 in the year 2000. So all the references were understood. They'd be like, "Hey, you remember jelly pens? Do you remember J-14 Magazine?" Basically, I worked with the prop master, the production designer, and the art director on anything that had to be custom designed for clearance purposes. I developed the digital assets that then get manufactured and printed. For PEN15, that would be all the stuff in Maya's room or Anna's room. There was a whale poster that was there that they couldn't clear, so we made a version of that using cool stock elements. It's kind of a crazy catch-all. It was fun. It was just a one man department, so it's a lot of work. Really, really awesome team. Anna and Maya were so cool and nice and trusted everybody. As far as all the shows I've worked on, it was probably my favorite just for sentimental reasons.

When I saw the "Graphic Design" credit, I guess I was kind of assuming it would be the person who did the credit sequence or the intro. So it was super surprising and way cooler when I saw your website and it was all the parody kind of stuff, if that's how you would even classify it?

I appreciate you looking at it because my job is so funny. It's all stuff that builds a world out. It's just supposed to be a backdrop, so it's always nice when people notice it. For title sequences, specifically for PEN15, I think Hulu has their own department for that. I think there's even companies in LA now that specifically just do credits and opening sequences. Dan Longino, the director, hit me up and was like, "I want to make the opening like 10 Things I Hate About You and scribbly", and I started working on it. Then they were like, "No, like, we have an in-house team that can do that." So for that show, we basically just did production stuff. For some of the other shows I'll do motion graphics and stuff like that, but it just depends.

I think it's just so cool how a lot of the stuff that we find funny in the show ends up being your design work. Like the pamphlet of the composer at the school showcase.

I loved making that. Also, there's all this copy that you have to put on stuff and 90% of the time the writers don't have time to write what's actually going to be on the pamphlet, so, oftentimes, I'll write paragraphs of funny stuff and no one ever reads it. It's so nice when it gets a little camera time.

Yeah, we both pointed out like that's something that we would make, genuinely.

I mean, we all know those cheesy middle school theater pamphlets. They're so near and dear.

When you're working on those, a lot of it is imitating graphics in the real world. What kind of references did you always look back on when working on that kind of stuff?

We do a ton of research, specifically for any period piece. Me and the prop masters pull a ton of references and we throw them all in a Google Drive. We get it down to the year. You'd be shocked how people notice stuff, so we do a ton of research. Marcy, the Prop Master is awesome and hyper detail oriented. There's a lot of stuff that you don't notice, too. The episode where they go to the rich girls house and there's Pop Tarts and Five Alive—all of those I made from scratch because they don't really exist in a high res format. You can't buy them, necessarily. Or, if you can, they're really expensive. So we got a real Pop Tarts box and made millimeter dimensions and used references. A ton of online research. For magazines, we had stacks of J-14, YM, and Delias. We had a whole mood board with Sisqo and JC Chasez. We did a ton of research. Also, you have to consider your characters. Anna and Maya are slightly different and have different interests, so it's always kind of fun to think about what Maya would have versus Anna. And then, yeah, just emulating those y2k styles, which are so popular now. Even a few years ago, when that show came out, they weren't around as much. So it was a super fun trip down memory lane at the time.

What do you think about the resurgence of y2k design? It's in our everyday design language now.

I know, isn't it wild? I think it's great. It was going on in my formative years. It's got this sheen and the lines are so smooth and slick. It's funny when you watch TikTok and there's kids that are 19 and doing y2k. I feel like they're making it look a little bit less disheveled than it was. But there's so much fun, bubbly Japanese stuff going on. I think it's awesome. I just wish there were more jelly pens around.

I used to have the carousel that you could put on your desk and have like 25 different colors and just spin it around. That was like the one thing I remember begging my parents for. I needed to have colorful, sparkly, glitter pens for my notes.

Honestly, it's like nothing changes. I just need cute stuff around.

So you were saying that you worked with the production designer mostly? Is that typical? What's the hierarchy, usually?

So, typically, the production designer is the head honcho. They're the ones that usually interface with the director and the creators and the other department heads. So they're overseeing everything and developing the overarching themes. The art director is the next in command. They're the ones that facilitate the builds and get the materials to actually make the manufacturing happen according to the design notes from the production designer. Then there's the set dressers who are shopping for furniture, wall pieces, or anything like that. They're on set, dressing the set. And then there's the prop master. Anything that is held or featured prominently is considered a prop. They handle objects and glasses and watches and wallets and everything. I typically work with a production designer, who will give me a ledger, basically. They send me the scripts, and then they give me a Google Doc that lists all the things they will need. They usually prioritize them by the scene number. I'm not typically on set because I use a pretty big computer to do graphic stuff. It's a lot of last minute stuff, it's tough. It really feels like boot camp sometimes because you'll get a last minute request for a pretty big thing. When they built the sets for the school hallways, you'll notice there's flyers and posters everywhere. Grace was like, "Make as many as you can possibly make." I think I ended up doing 40 in the span of two days. It was just crazy. The nice thing is that, like you said, it's all referential, so it's not like I'm coming up with these out of my brain. It's like, we all remember that one science poster, so it's just about finding a really good one and emulating it using stock material. It makes you really quick at making decisions, which as you guys know, is really what design is. It's just a series of small decisions you make over and over and over again.

So you pretty much took only from stock material?

Yeah, there's a lot of clearance stuff when it comes to TV. You have to go through certain channels. A lot of the brands that get referenced have to be cleared with the company. Like if you use Coke, you have to reach out directly to them and say, "Hey, we want to use your products in a scene." It depends on the content of the scene, too. I remember for the scene where Maya is masturbating, they wanted to use a certain brand's box and they had to be like, "We want to use your brand, it's going to be featured in a scene with a 13 year old masturbating." They were like, "No, we're not interested. Sorry." So at that point, we would have to make a generic version of it. So then I come in, and I'm like, "Let's make something that looks kind of like this, but the color is a little different. Or the logos are slightly rounder." But yeah, we work with a lot of stock assets and use mindful manipulation to get the same effect.

When did you start working in this field of graphic design?

Well, I came to LA and I thought I wanted to be an editor because I realized quickly that in order to get into this world, it's helpful to have a marketable skill. I had knowledge of editing, so I got a job as a post PA at Abso Lutely Productions, which is Tim and Eric's company. They did the Tim and Eric Awesome Show, Check It Out! with Dr. Steve Brule, and stuff like that. I was basically working with editors, going through footage, and picking up lunch. Then I found out that Abso Lutely was making four shows but they had one graphic designer working on all of them and it was my friend Tak. On a whim, I asked him what programs he used to make stuff. He was like, "I just use Photoshop." I was like, "Oh, I know how to use Photoshop." I was totally self taught. I did not go to art school. I just did it for fun growing up being a little nerd and techie and I just offered to help do really basic stuff for free. And then I just did a good enough job that the next show that they did, they were like, "We want to bring you on as an assistant", and then eventually I was at the same level as him and we tag teamed like six shows in production at once. They were doing Nathan for You, Comedy Bang! Bang!, and Bad Boy. I don't know if you're familiar with Abso Lutely, but it's a very particular aesthetic. It was like old Adult Swim stuff. Learning how to do that was a fun challenge that I was oddly equipped to do as someone that didn't have formal training. I felt sort of lucky that way. So I worked with him for a while and then I just started freelancing. While I was there I met all these great people, including Grace, who hit me up when she got PEN15.

How long did it take for you to get comfortable? It took me a while to learn Photoshop.

Girl, me too. I still feel like I'm learning stuff. I mean, it took me so long to get over the basic impostor syndrome stuff because of the nature of how I started doing this type of work. It was just the right place, right time. But, it's like anything else: you learn a few tricks, you learn a few hotkeys, live in delusion, and pretend that you know what you're doing. The nice thing about doing production stuff is that you have short timelines and at some point have to say, "It's done and it's as good as it's gonna get", even if I feel like somehow I'm slipping it through. As time has gone on, I've realized that it's probably gonna look great and no one's even gonna see it, so just enjoy it for what it is. Also, there's so many tutorials on YouTube for everything. There's so much material that's available on the internet for very specific things that cuts so much time down in terms of futzing.

I really like the Nathan for You vector drawings on the hole punch paper. Is that your own personal way of drawing, naturally? How are you dealing with prompts that they give you?

Obviously, the whole dichotomy of Nathan is the idea that it feels like it's happening in real time, but behind the scenes it's all very orchestrated and fleshed out. Nathan was very hands-on in post production. I think they just wanted something that looked as if he himself had gone in and drawn it. The original guy that developed those in season one was Tak Beroyan. He's the head honcho behind all the Abso Lutely stuff. I took a lot of cues from his style. I mean, I love putting easter eggs in everything. No one will ever see them, but I put my friends' names in book titles and put my mom in articles. Like, there's 800 names in the pamphlet for PEN15. I'm gonna use real names because that's more fun than just coming up with fake stuff.

For the smoke detector instrument box, there's two jokes that are happening: there's the fact that the product is his idea, and then there's the design itself. How do you use your design to inform the joke?

Totally. That's such a great example, too. I mean, smoke detectors and rock'n'roll are obviously two competing ideas. So, you just think about what rock'n'roll means: bright, saturated colors, worn black lettering, and a fun, in-your-face font. All that stuff is so fun to play around with on something as boring as the smoke detector. It's all about color choice, font choice, composition and making it as big and extreme as possible to create contrast between the two products.

How many times did you get the critique of your design work calling too much attention to itself?

Not as often as you think. You'd rather someone say pull it back than push it forward, right? In a lot of the stuff I do, especially if it's background dressing, you don't want to draw too much attention, you just want it to look real. I like the shows where I never get that note. Tim and Eric are like, "Make it grosser." I remember Eric Andre said, "This isn't disgusting enough. You need to add more pimples, more gaping wounds." I feel like the nature of the work I've done is pretty extreme. The times I have gotten that note is because something was pulling focus away from the characters. Not very often, to answer your question.

I was just thinking of it because in Nathan for You, you have the balancing act of having to convince the people that aren't in on it that this is actually a real thing, but then also you have to appeal to the people watching the show.

It's just that line, you know? You push it to the edge, but it still has to read real. But honestly, the more real you make it, the funnier it'll probably be. The more referential, the bigger laugh it's gonna get. If you try too hard or make it too silly, it might not get as big a laugh because it feels like a joke.

When the design is the punchline of the joke, does Nathan or whoever critique it themselves? Because it affects their delivery as well.

Oh, yeah. Especially those shows, by the time they're looking at it, they're in the edit bay with the editors. And they were around, you know? Especially Nathan. He's there every day in the bay, doing cuts. I'll walk over and knock on the door and say, "Hey, this thing is done. Do you want to come look at it?" Then he comes over and takes a look and gives suggestions. Our job is to help them develop their vision. So yeah, especially at that company, they were very involved in the aesthetics of it and communicated really well about what they wanted, which made our jobs easier. It's better to work with somebody that knows what they want.

So most of the work is in person versus remote?

I've been invited to come on set, but it's a pretty hectic place. They'll do about two weeks of prep, where they're in a production office. It's awesome because everybody's in one place, prepping for the shoot that's impending. I'll be present for that. Then, once the shooting starts, I'll work from home and communicate that way. For PEN15 specifically, I was doing a lot more manufacturing than I normally do. They had this awesome, huge six foot plotter printer and they would say, "Hey, can you print these out, cut them and then we'll have a PA come and pick them up?"

So a lot of the manufacturing was done in-house? Or did you outsource?

Most of the time there's print shops. A lot of the shows I've worked on use Universal Print Shop, which is awesome. So, typically, I format the files for print and then send them off to a print shop and then they'll do a bunch of orders.

For the photo manipulation for Documentary Now, how do you communicate with the photo team to get the lighting all matched up?

The funny thing is that it's typically done on set when I'm not there, so I'm really at the whim of whoever's in charge of getting that photo. It's usually the art director. Most of the time, they're great, especially for the Bill Hader stuff. They have the reference photos so they can see where the lighting needs to be. Then, they'll send me raw camera files of a ton of different options and I pick the best one. So I don't direct them, usually. I've worked on things where they send me a phone photo and the lighting is all off and then I kind of have to just make it work.

Some of them are really persuasive. Even when they don't look totally real, it's still really funny.

It's totally contextual, too. Like, you know they're not real. If it gets a laugh, who cares?

Did you start to gain more appreciation for the kind of stuff you work on? When you watch a TV show, do you pick up on all those details?

To an annoying degree. Even in life, with labels and posters. You start to pick up and notice trends and patterns and cues. I actually have this awesome book that the prop master gave me. It's written by a woman who does all the graphics for the Wes Anderson movies and she has this whole thing about how she develops props, using symmetry and references. It's weird, because you're doing your job the best if no one's noticing it.

Do you have any dream shows you would want to work on?

Well, I was supposed to work on season two of Euphoria, but I passed it up and I regret that. So I missed out on that. That was a bummer. If they ever remake Romy and Michele's High School Reunion, I'd work on that. The Comeback for HBO, I'd work on that. I'm a huge reality TV fan and I always told myself I wouldn't work on them because I want the magic to be preserved. If there's a Euphoria season three, I wouldn't say no to that.

Why did you say no to it, originally?

I was too busy, to be honest. I've heard that it's kind of a tough working environment and that they have a very atypical production process. Working on an animated show would be really cool. If they ever do a live action Hello, Kitty, I'm so down.

Do you make art for fun?

I do a lot of sketching and drawing just for fun. I do a lot of sculpted miniatures. I actually did this table. Here's a painting of feet on a beach. There was like this thing going on in Vancouver where there were feet washing up on the beach. It was really weird. I did this convention booth for TwitchCon. That was a hand painted backdrop.

What makes someone a superstar?

Besides being Molly Shannon, of course. Superstar—magnetism. Joie de vivre. Somebody that must be true to themselves and radiates an energy to everyone else to be themselves too. A fabulous wardrobe. I think all those things make a superstar.