Superstars Only

Your upcoming show is a Tramps show. I've worked as a gallery assistant for several Tramps shows over the past five years, and you've been a Director at Tramps, I believe, since its genesis. Tramps is Parinaz Mogadassi's vision, and there's a lot of you in the spirit of Tramps too. What's so trampy about this show? Why is it so important that this is a Tramps show?

The collaboration between Parinaz and I has always been very connected visually. Our dialogue involves humor and perversion. The dialogue between us is also extremely esoteric. We know each other's taste. So, that's what makes the show trampy. It's important that this show is at Tramps because I ran the space since 2016, and the shows have been precursors. The vision of Tramps is a guiding source for the whole art world. I love the aesthetics of Tramps, the whole combination of the vision and the exuberance, the rush of like "what's happening next?!" I mean, we're not a commercial gallery, so we don't represent artists or do art fairs. We are anti-art world. We are solely for the longevity of the artist, especially if they are just starting out.

That's radical, like actually radical.

Yes, super radical.

This show is, essentially, the rebirth of Tramps (the American galleria) in its new NYC location. Do you feel that this show signifies an important and powerful transformation for you too?

Oh, absolutely. I've been working on this body of work since 2016, and that's when I started to run the galleria because I needed to get a studio space, and it was just all connected. I also asked Parinaz if I could sit the gallery as my band was working on its last full album and I wanted to listen to my mixes ha. It's this circling back. This is my life's work. Also, Tramps, of course, has a chic aesthetic.

How do you approach a solo show in which you are playing with such a diverse body of work? Has this body of work been something you've been wanting to do for a long time?

Yes. Specifically, when I found these silicone patches, which will be revealed, from a specific performance…the performance involved fire, and it was a risk. So my approach to the work is to be structurally sound but engage in a sense of freedom. I worked with ephemera for many years, with archives and for Printed Matter. I've been in New York for a long time, so I am approaching the work in an all-encompassing way but trying to not define anything.

It felt like the old location of Tramps had a big impact on how the work was viewed. The physical structure was so much a part of the experience of seeing the work. How do you believe the new location will affect the space and the work in the way it is viewed and experienced?

An artist must always work with the physical space and form a sense of harmony. Absolutely.

The New York art scene has reinvented itself many times. How has being an artist in this city changed? What does the future of the art scene in NYC look like?

I specifically don't think the art scene has changed. But that's a given with market prices and Sotheby's and all that bs, you know, inflation now and greed…everything disgusting. Wait, repeat the question (laughs); I was musing on the dirt of the streets.

Well, I'm asking if being an artist in the city has changed, and what do you think the future looks like? Maybe it hasn't changed. Maybe it's always been…like that.

I think it's always been like this. It really hasn't changed for me. I'm still surviving from performance to performance. I've always worked in a way that's definitely D.I.Y., which was my approach to running the gallery space as well and honoring the community. I don't think that the artworld has ever done that. The art world does not love art in the way Tramps does.

You are an incredible performer (your bands Gang Gang Dance, I.U.D, and more). How does the energy of performance manifest in your artwork, and is your approach to performance different from your approach to fine art?

No, everything I do is about performance. Even when I was on tour, every single penny I spent would go back into the performance, whether it was something to wear or what I was eating, if I had to buy a new piece of equipment. I see my work as performance. The energy is the same.

There is so much love in this show; you can really feel it. I feel like something deeply personal has infused each piece while still maintaining an air of mystery. Specifically, your sculptural installation works are both ephemeral and solid, which is a quality that is very hard to achieve. Is it intentional that these sculptural works feel so alive, on the cusp of transforming into something else? Does that just happen?

It sort of just happens. I mean, I know when a piece is finished. But it takes a lot of play to muse on each work. It's a live energy as performing on the stage. These works are alive because they sort of perform themselves.

"They perform themselves", I love that.

Yeah. But also this was always my approach to sculpture…(She picks up a pen and throws it across the room, where it hits the wall, bounces off, and lands on the floor).

(laughs) Wow!

The late Pat Hearn, a mentor of mine, told me that my work reminded her of Joan Jonas because I worked with error. (Speaking of the pen thrown across the room) That, to me, is performance because you can't capture it. When I started performing, there was no Instagram. We booked tours on myspace ha. But I like that you can't own this gesture; you can't monetize a lost performance.

Who or what inspires you artistically?

There are a lot of people that inspire me. But when I have a question, I'll run it by a list of three people. Of course, I want Parinaz's opinion. I like to run things by Rita Ackermann, and also Chloë Sevigny because she's one of my closest friends, and she just gets me. As far as artists that have really inspired me…I love David Hammons. I started this body of work before he had his show at the Drawing Center, and, for me, there are always parallels that I relate to. Carol Rama and James Lee Byers are also some of my favorite artists. Even though my work doesn't look anything like Byers', I just love it aesthetically. Robert Rauschenberg and Joseph Beuys feel close yet unattainable. I am also very influenced by film.

I feel that it's good to be inspired and then make something that looks totally different.

Yeah. There's certain things I definitely relate to, especially with Carol Rama. I remember that Lia Gangitano from Participant Gallery did a studio visit with me, and she said "these are so Carol Rama". And I was like "How did you know?!" There was a show of Rama's work at the New Museum across from my studio at the time. I've always loved her work; even when Rita Ackermann and I were curating shows back in the 2000's, we had Carol Rama pieces. We had a piece of hers at White Columns. Those shows were amazing, one was called "The Perfect Man Show" and "Perfect Man II". The perfect man does not exist (laughs), and the lists of artists were fantastic. I believe Parinaz curated the second Perfect Man show. Samsara. I was then off to tour so I stopped curating.

Your show will be opening in Winter of 2023 at Tramps gallery in its new location. What is your idea behind the title of the show?

I have had many titles since I started this body of work. But the title now is related to this interview.

The piece "Opera for Assholes", which is part of your upcoming show, is reflective of a specific story. Could you talk about that night?

Yeah, it's funny; I'd never been to the opera. I was performing for some 20 years, and I'd never been. I always thought of the opera as such a privilege, but I probably could have figured out how to go at the time. I knew I was going to fall in love with the opera, but I didn't know how much I would. Rita Ackermann took me. She picked me up at Tramps, and I said "I can't wear sneakers to the opera." We went downstairs in the mall and bought a pair of red shoes with gold embellishments. I locked up my sneakers in the galleria and off we went. As soon as I got to the door leaving the mall, the shoes started moving like this (she moves her clasped hands apart into a straight line). Then, I was at the opera, and while I was sitting down, one of the shoes became like a parallel line, like an equator, just from the pressure of my foot, and I was like "I can't walk out of here!", you know? (Laughing) My foot was flat to the ground! The other shoe proceeded to flatten as well walking around during intermission. So, I walked out of the opera, ironically, with no shoes. I just remember walking up the stairs of my crappy LES apartment…there was a slice of pizza on the banister and a roach on the steps. I'd just come from the opera, and it was such a eulogy, a metaphor, for my existence. All of a sudden, I have to wake up and get back to real life. I think my whole life, I've always wanted to escape.

It's like Cinderella…coming home after losing her slippers at the Ball.

Well, yes. A slice of pizza on a paper plate on the banister of the stairs, I have no shoes on, and then I see this roach (laughs). With the piece "Opera for Assholes", I'm the Artaudian loser because I could never figure out how to get to the opera. I've been back 4 times since. There is personal meaning to me in this work, yet this will be up to the eye of the beholder…..I will probably change the title, ha.

What do you think makes someone a superstar?

There are many stars. I have my own personal stars in the sky. I love Kembra Pfahler; she's just so iconic Lower East Side. Everything about her embodies a personality that is so unique and important, and one time I met Elizabeth Fraser (the vocalist for the Cocteau Twins). I've always felt uncomfortable putting people on pedestals. With Elizabeth I couldn't speak. Her dress was made of paper and people were adjusting her costume. I've met a lot of famous people. Ironically, two of my best friends are famous, and everyone puts them on a pedestal. I do too…I definitely respect where they came from and their existence in the world. This is not in a way that creates a hierarchy though; it's about admiration. I don't believe in differentiating people. For me, it's more about style. Because style is the embodiment of a person. This of course applies to their work as well.